We received the following message out of the blue last Thursday, and it prompted me to write to the author as it brought my thoughts back to an age old question ‘if I have a strong sense of my Irishness why can’t it be acknowledged in a more formal way?’
Extracts from the letter we received:
My name is Ryan McNelis and I am an American of Irish descent. I have over 40 million fellow Irish Americans, many of whom share my predicament. You see, I wish to have my birth registered in the Foreign Births Register so that I can become an Irish citizen. While I have no less than 4 (and probably 5) great grandparents who were born in Ireland, I unfortunately have no grandparents born in Ireland and do not qualify under current law.
I urge Ireland to change its citizenship by descent laws to enable people like me to become dual citizens of Ireland. I know many other Irish-Americans lament the fact they are denied the chance to become part of the Irish community.
Reasons to allow us to be citizens:
- Allowing us to become dual citizens means we will spend more money in Ireland.
- Many of us, including me, would like to consider retiring to Ireland, where we would collect American Social Security payments and serve as a net influx of funds to our new homeland.
- There is no burden on Irelands social programs, none of us are seeking Irish welfare.
- Most Irish Americans cherish their Irish ancestry, ties to the Church, and fundamental ideals in Republican forms of government, and strongly supported Ireland’s quest for independence, and should be allowed to become part of the Irish community.
- Under current law, famous Irish Americans like John F. Kennedy and Edward M. Kennedy would not be eligible for citizenship. These and others have helped shape the world in a positive way – Ireland should embrace them and their Irish American brothers and sisters with open arms.
Americans have a lot of money, and we like to spend a lot of money. We are highly educated and skilled workers, and could help serve the interests of Ireland either in Ireland, or in America. Look at President Obama, without the backing of Irish American voters he would never have won the election. Irish Americans are a powerful constituency in America and empowering them with dual citizenship would give Ireland a stronger voice in America.
If someone has 2 or more Irish born great-grandparents surely they have the same percentage of Irish heritage as someone with 1 irish born grandparent? yet one can only apply for citizenship in the latter case. Why not implement a 2 great grandparent policy? After all, it is the same percentage of Irish heritage as the current implementation of the law allows for.
Please change this law and policy.
Sincerely,
Ryan McNelis
The letter also included observations about nationalities without an Irish connection who are able to apply for citizenship, and how this engendered a feeling of disengagement by Irish Americans who are prevented from doing so. Ryan also applied some mathematical calculations to try and determine a percentage calculation of Irishness based on lines of descendency. I chose to leave this part out as we believe it should be based on the strength of ones sense of their Irish heritage, rather than who was born where and when.
Having received the letter from Ryan I wrote back to him with a few questions:
– Have you written to others.
– Are you aware of any recognition of the points made from the Irish government.
– Where in the US are you based.
– Are you representing yourself as an individual or part of an organisation.
Ryans response:
“Yes, I have been sending this to others, have sent it I think to every member of the Irish Parliament, and have gotten a few replies. I am not a member of any group, just myself, my family, and other similarly situated Irish Americans that would like to have the ability to become citizens.
Greece and Israel allow for citizenship through ancestry without regard to generational time limits, Ireland should do the same. It’d give Ireland a stronger voice in the world and greater access to other markets. It’s good for everyone and Ireland should seriously consider such a change.
I live in Rhode Island, the smallest state in the union, south of Boston, and east of New York City.
The entire greater Boston area is rich in Irish culture, home to the Kennedys, and incorporates Irish names into towns, streets, and sports teams. I am a law student, and will graduate and be admitted to the bar to practice law within one year.
I could polish up a better letter with more insight, but this was sent just to get the basic premise out and talked about. This is an issue I would love to see addressed and resolved. I visited Ireland once and would love to return on an Irish passport next time.”
Some will say nothing new here, its been a topic for discussion over the years, but I think there’s a couple of interesting aspects:
- Ryan is a young man, 3rd generation Irish, who feels the drive to get the discussion going again, and
- He’s raising this not when Ireland is in the middle of a boom, but in a recession.
My thoughts are along the lines that here we have someone who is future America stating his personal affection for Ireland. Someone who might not be recognised for this in Ireland itself unless he actually stands up and says so. Someone who still feels the Irish influences on his life probably stemming back to the late 1800s early 1900s. On top of that, given that Ireland is currently in economic difficulty, there is no apparent desire to capitalise on Ireland as a state. The emphasis seems to be more on joint benefit and the possible advantages of allowing dual citizenship for Irish americans.
Putting political agendas to one side, I hope we will see a renewed debate on this one. The Irish Government is currently initiating a global strategy to engage more deeply with the diaspora, and Irish American citizenship will we hope be part of the discussions.
Minister Michael Martin emphasised that the initiative forms part of a wider strategy of deeper Government engagement, and is intended to complement the Ireland-United States Strategic Review launched by the Taoiseach in New York on March 15th earlier this year.
You can get some information about the Global Irish Economic Forum here, and I will write more on ‘Irishness’ in another post.
Right now though let’s dwell on life from Ryans perspective.
Cead Mile Failte!
I am extremely greatful that this has been posted and will be discussed seriously. Hopefully, it will lead to a public policy debate that will remove the 1986 amendment that prevents one of my parents registering as a foreign born citizen and using that registration to allow me to register. Or better, perhaps it will lead to a more thorough reform allowing any 3rd generation descendent to apply.
I wish all those on the message board the very best, and hope you will take any steps you can to embrace your Irish brothers and sisters across the sea, as we have embraced you.
Never forget, our ancestors may have left due to famine and British oppression, but “though you can take an Irishman out of Ireland, you cannot take Ireland out of the Irishman.”
Ryan (letter’s author and hopeful Irish dual citizen)
Greetings, my brother Ryan wrote the first letter that got this discussion rolling, and I would like to add that I stand behind him in his efforts, and applaud any attempt to further this discussion. While it may seem like American arrogance for a non-citizen to argue for a policy change in another country, that is not the root of this message.
Rather, it is a feeling of kinship, of pride and cultural identity. Our family has long treasured its Irish heritage, as many Irish-Americans do. The St. Patrick’s Day parade is a huge event in America in several cities, and is an official holiday in Boston, Massachusetts despite no religious holidays being observed officially by the US government. In every major US city, you are sure to find neighborhoods dominated by Irish Americans, complete with bars (pubs) and restaurants to match that culture.
Point being, there are many Irish Americans that still cherish their Irish roots, and I believe many of the points have already been made on the merits of this discussion. I just add my comment to offer a bit of support for my brother and fellow “Irishman” at heart, and applaud his and any effort to discuss this issue.
-Rob McNelis
Hi Rob, I saw your brother on Politics.ie and would like to extend the invitation to you and other friends you may have.
http://www.politics.ie/register.php
Your brothers account now appears to be gone and I think he needs to register again.
I'd check out the links below too.
Dia dhuit A Chara,
I agree entirely with you. The Irish government has been very foolish with immigration into Ireland, Irish people are now afraid given the amount of foreign mass-immigration into Ireland… the irish will be a minority in their own country by 2050 according to DCU Professor Ferdinand Von Prydzinski.
We should be offering Jus-Sanguin citizenship to people like yourself whom have strong ancestral and cultural ties to Ireland, as people like yourself whom are attached to this place will make more of an effort to assimilate successfully compared to other people whom have no attachment to Ireland.
I believe that if you’re predominently (I hate to use the phrase) “full-blood” Irish….. you should be allowed to come back home, regardless of how long your ancestors have been away from the homeland.
Italy allows its diaspora to claim back as far as 1861! Before the country was even fully unified!
http://www.politics.ie/culture-community/60106-campaigning-irish-diaspora-ancestral-return-rights-jus-sanguin-14.html
http://www.politics.ie/groups/citizenship-rights-irish-diaspora-unrestricted-ancestral-return.html
Check these out if you can
Slán agus Beannacht
[...] Should Ireland make it easier for Americans to get Irish citizenship? http://www.diaspora.ie/starship/2009/05/irish-descent/ [...]
[...] it is dedicated solely to this one issue. Discussion Forum – Irish Diaspora for Irish Citizenship Irish Descent – The Irish Diaspora Thank [...]
I am from ireland and live there. When I first read the tittle i was shocked that anyone would consider allowing that, but have now realised you are just as Irish as i or any of my family are. I would embrace 3rd generation irish being allowed passports and citzenship. I think it is grossly unfair as the system stands.
My family are in the same position – not being able to apply for dual citizenship – 4 great grandparents all born in Ireland, and all ancestors prior Irish born ..So proud of our Irish heritage, but just not enough for the Irish Government.. Even though my ancestors settled here in Australia – the connection to Ireland is strong. We would love to be officially acknowledged as having a genuine connection to Ireland O'Regan Family
I share sympathy of your hardship……
In 2002, two argentine girls of irish descent from a town named Duggan in Argentina.
Applied for Irish citizenship: Well Educated, Fluent in Spanish & English and a very strong ancestral connection because most people from the town of duggan are direct descendents of irish immigrants.
They were turned down because they were a generation too late……
Utter Stupidity and they've allowed unlimited numbers of eastern europeans, africans and asians into the country…. all of whom have no concept or interest of what being irish is.
I am in a similar position, with 7 out of 8 great grandparents being Irish. It is sad to be so Irish and not be recognised as such.
This is a wonderful thing you are doing, seeing as how I am in a similar predicament. Maybe you should start a petition in some promenent Irish communities around Boston and New York? I'm sure you'd have many people who would back you up there. Keep it up the work you are doing! Eventually, there will be a change. Let me know if I can be of any help.
Hi Shamrock, and thanks for the message.
Maybe it would make sense to start something here on diaspora.ie (possibly a petition as you suggest). I'll have a think about what we could do, and if we get something up and running i'll let you know.
All the best for now,
cheers,
Mick.
I sent a letter to ever member of the Irish Parliament, and even recieved a certfied & stamped reply from one or two MPs. To get this law changed, will likely take a movement within Ireland.
To me it makes sense, for right now if someone had 1 grandparent who was an Irish citizen, but only because his mother was. And this same person had NO OTHER Irish ancestors…they would be only 12.5% Irish, yet would be entitled to become citizens of ireland.
Whereas people with 8 great grandparents all being citizens of Ireland, and thus essentially 100% Irish is UNABLE to even apply to become a citizen.
The people of Ireland need to ask whether a law that would allow someone who is 12.5% Irish be entitled to become a citizen, while denying people who are 100% irish that same opportunity. (even John, Robert, and Ted Kennedy would fail the requirements)
As such, I think the law needs to be re-thought, and if the EU is going to become more unified, Ireland should match their policy of citizenship to those of italy and/or Greece, which offer citizenship by descent for persons with ancestors as remote as the 1860s.
I'm American. It seems like almost everyone over here can trace back to some Irish roots.
But it is weird that my wife, for example, was able to receive Irish citizenship by descent through her Irish-born maternal grandfather. Weird because she has never been to Ireland. Weird because, technically, my wife is only 50% Irish (Irish-American mother), 25% German, and 25% Polish (her father is half of each). She also had a German last name until I came around to marry her.
My wife grew up in a predominantly Irish-American neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago. Basically everyone on her block had descended from an Irish person or Irish-American. Pretty much all of her family's friends and neighbors considered themselves "Irish" and were very proud of that fact. It was expected at that time a person from their close-knit community would end up marrying a Keane, Shaughnessy, or O'Connell. So it wasn't altogether surprising that some of my wife's family members were initially uspet that my mother-in-law married a man with no Irish heritage — and a German surname to boot.
Anyway, it seems that the Irish government was more than generous to allow my wife to receive citizenship. But, I admit it doesn't seem entirely fair. Case in point: Several of my wife's family members are not entitled to Irish citizenship despite the fact ALL of their recent descendents are ONLY Irish-Americans. No Italians, Germans, Scots, or any other ethnic group but the Irish (Irish-Americans). They look and sound as Irish as an American can probably sound. They all have Irish names and some gave their children traditional Irish forenames. Unfortunately for them they do not have an Irish-born grandparent. And their Irish-born great grandparents didn't register foreign births here in America. It's a shame they have no entitlement to citizenship under current Irish law.
Can you tell us… how do the people of Ireland feel about changing the current laws – regarding citizenship and is this topic raised or debated in Ireland.
Hi O'R,
You're sort of hitting the nail on the head there. It's hard to get a feel for opinion in Ireland for the simple reason that it hasn't been debated enough. The general public havn't been presented with the topic and therefore little discussion about it.
Having said that, the government made a commitment late last year to review how the country relates with the diaspora, so hopefully this will be an area that gets revisited. From my own point of view I think there should be a fresh look at this and some changes made.
We'll be starting a forum here over the next few weeks, and i'll be including citizenship rights as one of the topics. If we can tempt enough Irish in Ireland to join then hopefully we'll get a view of peoples thoughts.
All the best,
Mick.
Hi I am a descendent of a family that left in the 1847 1848 depression. I am very strong in my Irish heritage. I would love to live in the place where my family came from. I have always dreamed of going back to Ireland and this would help me get back to my roots. My mother is full blooded Irish and I am very proud of that fact.
I hope this passes parlament so I came come home.
Love and Light to all
Cathy
As a member of a family that has long-cherished its Irish heritage and someone who recently began exploring repatriation for me and my children, it came as a significant shock to learn that I am ineligible for citizenship despite the fact that at least 5 of 8 of my great-grandparents were born in Ireland (…still tracking the others). Count me as "available" to add my voice to any effort aimed at changing the existing law.
I am about a 3rd generation irish my middle and last as well as my married last names are irish I have truely dreamed about Ireland since I was very very young. It would be more than amazing to go home it is all I have ever wanted and dreamed of. The music the culture everything about Ireland is more than amazing and I will visit and one day I will move home! I am devoted and driven and pray that this is reconsidered.
I certainly agree with Ryan’s letter. I love my ancestry. Although my religious faith is Roman Catholic, I am Irish Catholic. I am an American that was confirmed Catholic within Ireland. This religious faith is strong, like my faith in Ireland. I will one day have an Irish Passport, whether the Government allows it through ancestry or not. However, it would be faster if they allowed through Ancestry. Cown and the Dial will not allow this until they understand the benefits. It’s a balance sheet. Do the negatives outweigh the positives? Unfortunately, this topic is relative to the individual wanting a Passport through Ancestry. You could do a case by case query but that would be too much. Objectively speaking, do the negatives outweigh the positives? This is not a discussion until you give the positive and negative facts. What are all the facts? Give the facts then start a discussion, otherwise it’s pointless. You can’t have a rational discussion without logical facts.
Ryans letter address some these facts but not all.
Here Here!
I am all for giving we of the Irish diaspora passports through ancestry. I was born in Canada and so like many have a mix of Irish/UK/Euro and North America ancestry. I calculate however that 68% of my GG Grandparents were Irish born or of Irish descent. I know exactly where my GG Grandparents Redmond lived in Co. Wexford and where on my mother's side the family lived in Co. Tipperary. GGG Grandpa was an alderman of Limerick City. GGG Granduncle was Governor of Co. Galway.
The GG Grandparents came over c.1850 and about 33% of the population was Irish at that time. Late in the 19th century in some areas it was as high as 90% Irish. The families left for economic reasons.
How great it would be for Ireland to be like those countries that offer dual citizenship by ancestry.
You'll get my vote and a Guiness too.
John Redmond
I found this definition of Irish diaspora on Wikipedia…
Actually it is two definitions due to the Irish government's current legal definition and the more general usage of the term.
"The term Irish diaspora is open to many interpretations. One, preferred by the government of Ireland, is defined in legal terms: the Irish diaspora are all persons of Irish nationality who habitually reside outside of the island of Ireland. This includes Irish citizens who have emigrated abroad and their children, who are Irish citizens by descent under Irish law. It also includes their grandchildren in cases where they were registered as Irish citizens in the Foreign Births Register held in every Irish diplomatic mission[3]. (Great-grandchildren and even more distant descendants of Irish immigrants may also register as Irish citizens, but only if the parent through whom they claim descent was registered as a citizen before the descendant in question was born.) Under this legal definition, the Irish diaspora is considerably smaller—some 3 million persons, of whom 1.2 million are Irish-born emigrants. This is still a large ratio for any country.[citation needed]
However, the usage of Irish diaspora is generally not limited by citizenship status, thus leading to an estimated (and fluctuating) membership of up to 80 million persons—the second and more emotive definition. The Irish Government acknowledged this interpretation—although it did not acknowledge any legal obligations to persons in this larger diaspora—when Article 2 of the Constitution of Ireland was amended in 1998 to read "[f]urthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage."
The right to register as an Irish citizen terminates at the third generation (except as noted above). This contrasts with citizenship law in Italy, Israel, Japan and other countries which make no legal reference to cherishing special affinities with their diasporas[citation needed] but which nonetheless permit legal avenues through which members of the diaspora can register as citizens."